Flat earther?

[RobHolt]

He was stomped on, there were some serious miscarriages of justice involved in this of stripping a man of his life work and love, by a self centred scheming egotist. There was more manipulation of the judicial system going on here than anyone will ever be able to prove, but the whole thing was sick! Plus Hammish Robertson paid the ultimate price, many people called it suicide even if the courts decided otherwise. The man basically drunk himself to death in a fit of depression, he died drowning in his own vomit?

I knew the man as I was working for Acoustic Research at the time and he based the design on the AR turntable (which he owned) not the Thorens TD150 as many people think. Though the TD150 according to people I have spoken to was also based on Ed Vilchers work conceptually which is why the story evolved.

Very sad story.

I'll dig out the articles at the weekend and put them into a thread.
I'd read and heard about the episode but looking back at the reporting from the day is very interesting, particularly the actions of the courts.

 

[Dave Simpson]

There are many makes and models of Hi-Fi that do just this, and most of them better at it than Linn and Naim. The difference that created PRaT was the imposing of a *timing* on all music as opposed to leaving it up to the musicians

All fine and good if something does PR&T better than Linn or Naim. That really isn't the point though. It's what PR&T is and whether it may be a viable option to judging bits of sound where the listener has no idea of how much or how little bass or treble, etc. is faithful to the signal.

Regarding equipment adding PR&T -bullshit IMO. That would require an AI system which, if it existed, would have to know that Coltrane is playing for example and then mimic his chops. Sorry but that's not how it works...it's a signal attribute like any other and probably measureable by those that understand what to look for.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Some music has the fine interplay of keenly skilled musicians bending notes and timing for effect, playing off beat to give a sense of vigour or falling asleep at the wheel. They can tip the pace forwards and backwards as they see fit for effect, to communicate intent.

If your hifi is incapable of recreating this, then it's not hifi. If your equipment highlights the timing in everything is plays by spotlighting the leading edge of notes, then it's not hifi.

Richard is spot on.

No, Richard is off but you're spot on with your first paragraph. The problem is most hifi fails badly at this compared to the best (and certainly reality.)

 

[flatpopely]

This post is a classic example of someone who got sucked in and is still stuck in the overpriced bullshit brainwash.

Differences of opinon exist and this is a classic example of someone who was out witted by those with greater business minds. Happens all the time in all types of business. Its not a nice feeling and can lead to a lasting bias.

Ironic that Linn and NAIM are sold in large numbers s/h on eBay.

As for vfm just look at the NAIM NAIT XS!

 

[sq225917]

One man's "outwitted by a greater business mind" is another man's "driven to suicide by a lying, cheating, scheming, design stealing, corrupt bastard".

I kinda lean towards the second.

The Naim sound is an attempt to bring back something easily identifiable that much recorded music might have lost from the live event. But it's just artifice.

A quick check on any international ebay shows naim and linn pail into insignificance against sony and marantz in terms of items for sale. In fact it's the same in the UK, they are but tiny drops in the larger ocean.

 

[flatpopely]

Linn won the court case on appeal. Sq, your post is ergo libel.

 

[Richard Dunn]

All fine and good if something does PR&T better than Linn or Naim. That really isn't the point though. It's what PR&T is and whether it may be a viable option to judging bits of sound where the listener has no idea of how much or how little bass or treble, etc. is faithful to the signal.

Regarding equipment adding PR&T -bullshit IMO. That would require an AI system which, if it existed, would have to know that Coltrane is playing for example and then mimic his chops. Sorry but that's not how it works...it's a signal attribute like any other and probably measureable by those that understand what to look for.

That is the root of the problem, the Linn / Naim PRaT is an artifice, there is natural pace rhythm and timing which good product leaves alone and doesn't mask and there is the *imposed* timing artifice of Linn products that Naim helped to show when the two companies were twinned in all but name. When they separated and fell out the marketing meant the conceptual understanding diverged and is now largely lost in both companies new products, but they still live on the bullshit and the sheep still spout the liturgy.

 

[bottleneck]

I read a stereophile article a couple of years ago.

It discussed the importance of different parts of the signal chain in terms of importance.

We had, David Wilson (wilson speakers), Ivor T from Linn, and a third person - I think a reviewer.

It was very interesting. Even in these recent years, Ivor T was still of the 'source first' ideology. Wilson was coming at it from a 'speaker first' perspective. The reviewer (in my opinion) was more of a fence sitter ''its all important'' said he.


A personal opinion

When auditioning equipment (at home, in your own system) - surely it is good to ask yourself questions such as -

1 what changes are there to the sound?
2 do they dissapear with level matching?
3 in reviews, are there clues to show what I am hearing? - e.g. an artificially tailored frequency response on a loudspeaker for example


To listen to just a couple of aspects of the sound, ignoring all else ..just seems folly to me. It is why I compared the term to a 'chocolate teapot' at the beginning.

I defend anybody's right to use whatever methodology they choose to pick equipment however. Whatever makes you happy in your life folks

 

[lindsayt]

They did well in getting people to think differently and to give proper consideration to the source component, but it stops there and they (Linn and the aligned FE dealer machine) did a great deal of harm...

...That doesn't mean there were not many worthy FE products. I think the LP12 is a fine TT but it was never the best. Naim made very good amplifiers but then so did plenty of other people, they just didn't get a look-in. My main criticisms of that period were not that the kit was poor, just that bias and mis-selling was rife.

Excellent post Robert. I agree 100% with everything that you said and I think you summed-up the Flat Earth history very well.

 

[nando]

quote

That is good news since most of the M1 boxes seen to sell for £400-£500.
Look forward to seeing/hearing it.

you will be the first to hear it appart from me, regards, rob.

 

[Dave Simpson]

That is the root of the problem, the Linn / Naim PRaT is an artifice, there is natural pace rhythm and timing which good product leaves alone and doesn't mask and there is the *imposed* timing artifice of Linn products that Naim helped to show when the two companies were twinned in all but name. When they separated and fell out the marketing meant the conceptual understanding diverged and is now largely lost in both companies new products, but they still live on the bullshit and the sheep still spout the liturgy.

Again, how could any hifi component add the nuances, phrasing and timing quirks unique to each musician? That's impossible.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Again, how could any hifi component add the nuances, phrasing and timing quirks unique to each musician? That's impossible.

You just don't understand, do you. What you see as a reality is a delusion, an artifice. The Linn turntable started it because of its suspension design and everything else was either designed (Linn speakers) or selected (Naim amps) to enhance this effect.

I could design product to accentuate the leading edge as well, but what is the point, why copy a distortion. You just think it is correct so you look for it.

 

[Dave Simpson]

First, I'd love to see some evidence of this "leading-edge" nonsense-reviewer-speak you see constantly regurgitated on these hifi forums. What exactly is it, a transient overshoot? If so, please provide some scope shots where it would be easily apparent.

Secondly, how is reproducing the unique phrasings of a live musician a delusion? Do you play an instrument? I do. Anyone who plays an instrument (and most that don't except for a handful of warped internet hifi forum audiophiles) will recognize the unique differences that separates a live musician from one mechanically reproduced which is all the majority of hifi gear offers.

 

[Richard Dunn]

First, I'd love to see some evidence of this "leading-edge" nonsense-reviewer-speak you see constantly regurgitated on these hifi forums. What exactly is it, a transient overshoot? If so, please provide some scope shots where it would be easily apparent.

Secondly, how is reproducing the unique phrasings of a live musician a delusion? Do you play an instrument? I do. Anyone who plays an instrument (and most that don't except for a handful of warped internet hifi forum audiophiles) will recognize the unique differences that separates a live musician from one mechanically reproduced which is all the majority of hifi gear offers.

Then you are not talking about PRaT, you seem to be talking about better information from the music, if so I think you are either seriously musically curtailed or you don't get out much to compare.

PRaT comes from two thing combined and only applies to early Linn / Naim products, the *sound* that was pushed by Ivor T and Charlie Brennan in setting up the flat earth dealers. This character or artifice changed over time and even more so after the split, to the point now that their unique character has gone from most of their products and they are just plain ordinary, but a lot of the sheep cannot break out of the brainwash. In this thread we are talking about PRaT and how the flat earth thing came about, and sonically that came about due to two things. First was a forced up front presentation from the Naim amplifiers which emphasised the leading edge of notes, which was largely a by product of the voltage regulation they used and the quasi complimentary RCA circuit application note they copied, do you not realise it was designed as a PA or monitor amplifier for studios, where this sort of presentation is required. Secondly was the Linn turntable which imposed a timing or bounce on the music, no matter if it was punk rock or Bach. So you had a bouncy up front home PA system that gave you an artificial but enjoyable presentation of some times of music and virtually destroyed the communication of others, hence the typical Linn / Naim dealer play list.

You are stuck in a time warp if you think that this represents state of the art in musical reproduction, BUT I think you just use the terms to justify yourself and your equipment choices as the terms have become some sort of folk law, there is little of the original PRaT in modern Linn or Naim products, harsh and bland (you can guess which one applies to which) would be the terms that come to my mind. BUT even then it varies with product, in the old days Naim amps sounded like Naim amps, now they all sound pretty different, their main consistency now is in the rip off price that is charged for them, which applies even more so to Linn product.

 

[Dave Simpson]

I'm not entirely happy with the acronym PR&T but it's a label now so we're stuck with it. Regardless, the bits I call "realism" are there with Naim and a few other pieces of kit which are not part of a "house" sound but the signal if you judge based on musical criteria as mentioned earlier.

I'm still not convinced on this "leading edge" thing as it implies ringing or some sort of rising high frequency response which I've yet to see. Perhaps you folks that use the term "leading edge" are just as wrong as those that use the term PR&T? ;-)

 

[Richard Dunn]

I'm not entirely happy with the acronym PR&T but it's a label now so we're stuck with it. Regardless, the bits I call "realism" are there with Naim and a few other pieces of kit which are not part of a "house" sound but the signal if you judge based on musical criteria as mentioned earlier.

I'm still not convinced on this "leading edge" thing as it implies ringing or some sort of rising high frequency response which I've yet to see. Perhaps you folks that use the term "leading edge" are just as wrong as those that use the term PR&T? ;-)

You are right, it is a term that can be used subjectively and objectively. Objectively it refers to the rise of a square wave as viewed on a 'scope. It should be vertical but never is as the rise time speed cannot be absolute, it is looked at in conjunction with the overshoot at the top of the leading edge, and is often used to objectively express the "speed" of an amplifier, it is supposed to correlate to the ability to start and stop accurately with the music. Subjectively the two terms do not necessarily correlate, as leading edge is normally referred to as the percussive attack of a note, mostly from strings and drums. Most instruments have a number of elements to their sound and this is normally initiated by a percussive attack. This is the subjective leading edge and by elevating the upper midrange into the load, either by load character manipulation or drive character so this element of the instrument will be or seem to be accentuated.

So the classic Linn / Naim sound is this accentuation of the notes percussive attack and the rise and fall in the note decay at a imposed timing.

 

[Dave Simpson]

So the classic Linn / Naim sound is this accentuation of the notes percussive attack and the rise and fall in the note decay at a imposed timing.

The accentuation of notes, harshness or "leading edge" thing is easy to eliminate then as any piece or system using Naim gear can be made to sound as soft and round as any tube-based system by simply placing the Naim gear directly on a carpeted floor instead of a stand. A better support structure (stand) will eliminate this problem with my experience and you can use the direct-to-carpet test as a gauge on how to judge the quality of a support for a Naim system.

If you think robbing the swing and verve behind Ella, Coltrane, Bartok, Messiaen or Varese making them more mechanical is natural and/or accurate - count me out.

 

[RobHolt]

The accentuation of notes, harshness or "leading edge" thing is easy to eliminate then as any piece or system using Naim gear can be made to sound as soft and round as any tube-based system by simply placing the Naim gear directly on a carpeted floor instead of a stand.

Not so at all - sorry dave but I regard that as nonsense.

The enhancement of leading edges (as used in the subjective sense) is solely due to gross response errors within many Linn and Naim speakers.
All have clearly rising upper mid output which artificially sharpens percussive sounds and makes them appear faster and sharper.
Most also have lean/reduced bass relative to the middle frequencies which adds to the effect robbing the music of body. When you strip away body from the sound you naturally emphasise the transient sounds.

The amplifier being on the carpet has nothing to do with it.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Rob,

You better have a chat with my carpet then because placing Naim gear directly to carpet using my Briks (Convertible or Canon generations), Kabers, SBLs, Intros or Kans will make the Naim as syrupy as an early Conrad-Johnson tube amp.

regards,

dave

P.S. I've had exactly the same results when repeated in shops and customer's or friend's homes and with different, all-naim or hybrid systems including non FE-speakers .

 

[RobHolt]

Rob,

You better have a chat with my carpet then because placing Naim gear directly to carpet using my Briks (Convertible or Canon generations), Kabers, SBLs, Intros or Kans will make the Naim as syrupy as an early Conrad-Johnson tube amp.

regards,

dave

P.S. I've had exactly the same results when repeated in shops and customer's or friend's homes and with all-naim or hybrid systems including non FE-speakers .

Sorry that just has to be imaginary, or a wind-up.

Even supposing for one moment that the internal amplifier circuits were being influenced, the effect would be incredibly small indeed and nothing like you describe.