Technics SL1200/1210 debate

I said "used" as well as "heard" in my question for a reason.

Engineering is clearly relevant for kit with moving parts. For electronics, stability and reliability are the issues. FWIW, AOS amps measure well but a couple of the Chinese-fitted resistors failed and have been replaced FOC with higher grade ones.

Why are you avoiding telling me what turntable you've got? You do realise that I'll keep asking until you tell me... Is it an LP12, or do you even own a turntable? Come on, tell your uncle Steven :D
 
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Hmmm... given that 24/96 can't match a well set up cassette deck, I'm not sure if it could really represent the differences between turntables very well. People might be able to hear slight differences, and then regard them as precisely that - slight!

Actually, the differences between a modded SL1200 with RB250 and LP12 with RB250 are profound; someways the Linn wins, others the Technics. I don't think digital recording is quite up to capturing the scale of the differences, especially with most soundcards...

I'd just like to clarify matters by the way; I am *not* claiming great things for the stock SL1200. My point has always been that it's a cheap way into getting serious high end performance if you go the mod route. Spend £1,000 on it and you're into £5,000 Brit superdeck territory. Again, I'm not saying it's better in every way than any of these, but it is better in some, and worse in others. My point being that - in issues of bass grip and speed stability, it's ahead.

I am NOT and never have said it's better in stock form than super decks, but aspects of its engineering and build are just as good, if not better. Specifically, that alloy top plate, chassis, bearing housing and motor (and control circuitry) would not disgrace any deck at that price. If you don't believe me, pull one apart and decide for yourself!

I don't know why this is supposed to be controversial; I've had some prominent turntable manufacturers say it to me privately. It's just common sense. The point is of course that those buying a £5,000 LP12 Keel are not the sort to buy an SL1200 pull it apart and rebuild it by hand with superior bits where needed. It's not comparing like with like. Just because I could turn a £30k Suburu Imprezza Turbo into a Jaguar XK-R beater doesn't mean Jaguar sales will suffer; they're completely different markets. That's a no-brainer.

I've said in the mag that if you want a fantastic high end turntable, spend £10k and get an SME dealer bring it round and install it for you, then listen and enjoy. The existence of, or the tweaking potential of an SL1200, doesn't in any way challenge that. As I always say, different strokes for different folks...
 
Hi David,

Isn't it rather more fun though to get the best sound whilst spending the least amount of money? Otherwise it's surely a case of having more money than sense. I think it's important to point out that those going down the modified Technics route are not necessarily doing so because they're short of a few bob ;)

I'd rather spend, say, £1500-£2000 on a modified 1210 than £5000 on a Keel'd LP12, when the former to my ears completely outperforms it in terms of fundamentally how accurately and enjoyably music is reproduced, and sink the change in my back pocket or spend it on music!

Wouldn't you? Being seduced by the 'badge' on the front of your gear is a little, what's the word, 'superficial'.

The fact is, there's a significant price premium attached to a Linn or SME badge which has got nothing whatsoever to do with audio performance.

Would you agree?
 
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The Devil said:
You are beginning to sound like that Australian guy who spends his life continually moaning about "badge snobs" and Naim.
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Steven Toy said:
I know who you mean. I think switching from Naim to unmodified mid-priced Sony is definitely a downgrade.
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With respect Steven, only an audiophile caught up with, and perhaps blinkered by his own subjective viewpoints asserted as some sort of objective truth, arguing bitterly on an internet forum as you have for the last 14 pages with the 'Devil', would say something like that.

People who love music, and have an musical appreciation based upon professional musical careers at the highest levels in the classical field think differently - they have heard what the Sony has to offer, compared it to Naim and found the Naim wanting, as did I.

It would appear that whilst I stand accused of moaning about badge snobs and Naim, that I am essentially right in that contention, as the two appear to segue neatly together.

I would have expected a much more open mind from you Steven, but after reading your stoush here with what appears to be Bub, of ex PFM fame, aka 'The Devil' I will leave it at that. The comments from both of you are so incredibly disrespectful to each other, that they do not deserve further comment or investment of time from me.

I'm Out

Jon
 
Jon I was trying to concede a little point to James but I wish I had not bothered tbh. I guess unmodified Sony is going to be neither better nor worse than Naim, just preferable if the Naim house sound midway up their range sounds more than a little contrived.

After 14+ pages with James Mc Peake I am being dragged down to his level and for this I humbly apologise. True to say I really should hear ES Sony kit before I pass any judgement on it.
 
I've heard Sony ES kit (some of it at any rate) - I didn't feel compelled to buy it.
 
Steven Toy said:
I'd rather spend, say, £1500-£2000 on a modified 1210 than £5000 on a Keel'd LP12, when the former to my ears completely outperforms it in terms of fundamentally how accurately and enjoyably music is reproduced, and sink the change in my back pocket or spend it on music!
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That would be great if it was true, but right now it's just wishful thinking on your part. You've already said that you haven't actually compared the Technics with any other turntable, let alone an LP12.

Boasting that it's better than this, that or the other is just whistling in the dark. It's been exhibited in public, and it apparently failed to impress the great unwashed (if idle gossip from blinkered fools can be believed).
 
James I place enough faith in my own musical memory not to have to rely on side-by-side A/B dems. Of course I have heard numerous LP12s and am therefore completely familiar with their rather consistent and inherent characteristics. You are clutching at straws on this one.
 
Johns Naim said:
People who love music, and have an musical appreciation based upon professional musical careers at the highest levels in the classical field think differently - they have heard what the Sony has to offer, compared it to Naim and found the Naim wanting, as did I.

...It would appear that whilst I stand accused of moaning about badge snobs...
Jon
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...I'm the Elitist?"

Is your classical musician's opinion worth more than a housewife who can't whistle a tune but prefers something over Sony?
 
Steven Toy said:
James I place enough faith in my own musical memory not to have to rely on side-by-side A/B dems. Of course I have heard numerous LP12s and am therefore completely familiar with their rather consistent and inherent characteristics. You are clutching at straws on this one.
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If you're relying on memory to accurately assess the difference between two products, you're making a huge mistake.
 
Steven Toy said:
James I place enough faith in my own musical memory not to have to rely on side-by-side A/B dems. Of course I have heard numerous LP12s and am therefore completely familiar with their rather consistent and inherent characteristics. You are clutching at straws on this one.
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"Aural memory" doesn't last very long.

You've never even owned a turntable, Steven. You don't own any vinyl records, either. I can't understand why you are so dead set on acquiring the Technics, although the cost is admittedly low.

And when you finally got the chance to exhibit something that's allegedly really, really good, a big chance to impress people with your hi-fi expertise and wisdom, you managed to goof it by turning up the volume too loud so that the amplifiers clipped.
 
David Price said:
Hmmm... given that 24/96 can't match a well set up cassette deck, I'm not sure if it could really represent the differences between turntables very well.
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Come on David, 16/44 let alone 24/96 completely demolishes cassette even on a Nak.

Try some of the PFM downloads.
Even using the analogue input on a laptop you can hear the difference that a Radikal makes to an otherwise identical LP12.
You can also clear hear what, for example changing mats does to my P9. Digital is far more transparent that people realise.

I could also set up as blind rest for you in which the TT output is digitised and you won't be able to determine when the signal is passing through the digital loop.
I've done this enough times now to state this with 100% confidence.
David, I'll even do it through my OT ESL57s which I know you regard highly, and you can choose the amplifier - all it needs is a tape loop, preferably a passive one, but I can even supply that in the form of a World Design valve amp.
 
I have also heard a lot of LP12's but unlike Steven I would not say that they had "rather consistent and inherent characteristics" (older models perhaps). Indeed, part of the problem with this deck is how different the various levels of trim can sound. The Radikal and Keel have, in particular, altered its presentation to such a point that many who like the 'traditional' Linn sound may no longer like it.
 

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