Why do you visit audio forums?

[Richard Dunn]

I'm seen no published, measured researched on microphony from either of these three brands in the past 30 years. Do you have access to some unpublished data that we don't.

In fact I've never seen any microphony data from any manufacture that didn't relate to turntables; though I'm sure some will exist for reel to reel tape.

Produce the data or renounce the claim.

As Richard rightly stated, apart from mechanical parts, it's a valve thing...




Do you not think it funny, all it would take to validate an entire section of the hifi accessories market would be one instance of showing noise overlaid onto the signal via microphony, surely with all their money they could cobble that together were it true?

I said it is *largely* a valve thing, it is at very low level in solid state, but it is still there and subjectively detectable, but as far as I know unmeasurable. But with these very low level things it depends if your system shows it or your ears hear it.

What is clearly audible and nothing to do with microphony is the effects of different materials and fixings in case designs. I think the problems with these evengelical part time preachers and shills, like that pollutant from AoS who gets everywhere Steve Toy, is they haven't got a clue what they are talking about, even though they may well have heard something.

IMO the AoS in crowd with their pet manufacturers and bodgers and the supporting shills like Steve are not doing the subjectivist cause any favours at all.

 

[Dave Simpson]

I'm seen no published, measured researched on microphony from either of these three brands in the past 30 years. Do you have access to some unpublished data that we don't.

In fact I've never seen any microphony data from any manufacture that didn't relate to turntables; though I'm sure some will exist for reel to reel tape.

Produce the data or renounce the claim.

As Richard rightly stated, apart from mechanical parts, it's a valve thing...




Do you not think it funny, all it would take to validate an entire section of the hifi accessories market would be one instance of showing noise overlaid onto the signal via microphony, surely with all their money they could cobble that together were it true?

If I had your data I'd produce it Simon. In the meantime, I'll have to rely on forty years of listening and experimenting.

Funny...I suppose Pluto didn't exist until that fateful nanosecond one day in 1930 when it was measured by a human with a camera?

 

[RobHolt]

IMO the AoS in crowd with their pet manufacturers and bodgers and the supporting shills like Steve are not doing the subjectivist cause any favours at all.

Well on that we agree.

 

[lindsayt]

well apart from me there is my cat.

Posts like this that make me laugh out loud are one of the reasons for me coming on this forum.


I'm listening to Ry Cooder now with my valve amps plonked on the floor and my non suspended tt standing on the floor. Absolutely no problem with microphony here. That's because the tt and amps are in a different room to my speakers. Ha! I'm using 20 metres of thin electrical flex for speaker cable. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it cable and support obsessed audiophiles!


AoS forum. I've been impressed by the enthusiastic reception to the Halloween Bake-off thread over there. So they can't be all bad. It'll be interesting to see and hear what kit they bring on the day.

Being a bit tongue in cheek:

Will the AoS members all turn up with Technics 1210's?

Hi-fi Subjectivists will arrive with NVA kit

pfm with Linn / Naim

WW will swap boxes several times during the day

Zerogain? Something sensible? Nothing too outlandish?

:bakeoff: :SWMBO: :knight: :redrum:

 

[Richard Dunn]

AoS forum. I've been impressed by the enthusiastic reception to the Halloween Bake-off thread over there. So they can't be all bad. It'll be interesting to see and hear what kit they bring on the day.

Being a bit tongue in cheek:

Will the AoS members all turn up with Technics 1210's?

Hi-fi Subjectivists will arrive with NVA kit

pfm with Linn / Naim

WW will swap boxes several times during the day

Zerogain? Something sensible? Nothing too outlandish?

The *normal* AoS bloke is fine it is just the evangelists and egotists that wind me up, but there is a truce for everyone at the show, I will even bring a cage for Marco

Though forget about Wigwam, James has gone in a strop, even though at least one of the mods wants Wigwam to get involved James has put a block on it and any posts mentioning it will be removed. Stupid twonk it is nothing like Scalford and no threat to it at all. But if by some miracle he decides to come we will just smile sickly at each other and shake hands at least four times whilst growling behind the smile through gritted teeth - it really was such a performance at this years Scalford that I wish it had been filmed.

 

[Mescalito]

I really do not understand the problem nor have I ever understood it, it is just so much nonsense. Music is subjective, always has been and always will be.

In order to choose and enjoy an egg do you have to know how to run an egg farm or what to feed the chickens NO of course you don't, you only need your senses and mostly taste buds to make choices. So why do you lot want to try to be chicken farmers

Hi, Richard,

I entirely agree that music is subjective. That is why you really do not need anything more than a cheap Dansette to decide if a piece of music moves you. Personally, I would rather listen to great music on a crap system than mediocre music on a superb system.

But electronics are not. Our perception of them may be subjective, and is very often influenced by peer pressure, expectation bias and all the usual suspects. But that's another discusion, eh?


Chris

 

[Mescalito]

How a power transistor is mounted in the case effects the sound, how that case is made and fixed together effects the sound, so it is not a great leap to think maybe what the case is standing on effects the sound. Some of these changes are very small, but they all add up, and quite often without some you cannot hear the others, and there is no technical explanation for that.

Rob has the rights of it. Bollocks.
If what you state is true, what is the mechanism at work?

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

Rob has the rights of it. Bollocks.
If what you state is true, what is the mechanism at work?

Chris

My ears

 

[Mescalito]

My ears

Could it conceivably be your imagination?

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

Hi, Richard,
Personally, I would rather listen to great music on a crap system than mediocre music on a superb system.
Chris

Content v medium - it is another argument. If I have a good system running I could listen to a recording of wind whistling through trees and can imagine I am in Epping Forest having a walk on a rainy day when I can't. Sounds daft but it is not only music or performance. I have the original Decca dem record for ffss when it was launched dating from 1957, the commentary by the suit with the BBC voice is one of my tests of a good system. How real is he? and that is the point of good hi-fi, as close to reality that you can get, even if it is a Mongolian nose flute

 

[Dev]

Hi, Richard,

I entirely agree that music is subjective. That is why you really do not need anything more than a cheap Dansette to decide if a piece of music moves you. Personally, I would rather listen to great music on a crap system than mediocre music on a superb system.

But electronics are not. Our perception of them may be subjective, and is very often influenced by peer pressure, expectation bias and all the usual suspects. But that's another discusion, eh?


Chris

I'd agree with that. The way I look at it is this, a poem (and other written art) for example is subjective, but the paper it's written/printed on isn't and doesn't have to be anything special to convey the art. The same could be said of photography. The true art is in the picture and the although the best tools for the job (camera, printing/displays) can improve the output and enjoyment, they are not subjective. A sharper/redder/whatever image is usually identifiable. Which one one prefers can be subjective. IOW, the tools are objective but the result subjective.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Could it conceivably be your imagination?

Chris

Nearly 50 years of it since I was a teenager with my fathers tape machine would be a very long delusion, but there again people have been in a religion all their life and look at all the Linnies and Naimies still around

When I was doing it very seriously twenty to thirty years ago I was very careful to make sure it wasn't, as I had doubts about what I was hearing, but now with time and experience I just trust my ears, but I don't expect you to, learn to trust your own.

 

[RobHolt]

I'd agree with that. The way I look at it is this, a poem (and other written art) for example is subjective, but the paper it's written/printed on isn't and doesn't have to be anything special to convey the art. The same could be said of photography. The true art is in the picture and the although the best tools for the job (camera, printing/displays) can improve the output and enjoyment, they are not subjective. A sharper/redder/whatever image is usually identifiable. Which one one prefers can be subjective. IOW, the tools are objective but the result subjective.

Perfectly put Dev.

On the transistors vibrating issue, I don't think anyone would question that they vibrate internally. They must - crank up the power through a metal can power transistor driving dummy load and you will hear it sing very, very quietly. The issue is whether or not when that transistor is bolted inside an amplifier, the fact that it sits on a Quadraspire, Mana, SO etc rack is audibly significant in any way.
As ever, ye old blind test will prove it conclusively. Just listen to the power amplifier sitting on the floor and then on some super expensive audiophile platform.

Does how they are bolted to the case (or the case material) matter?
Well I wouldn't claim to know having never tried it, so I'd defer to those who've done the research until I hear otherwise for myself.
Racks and supports I have heard for myself many, many times.

 

[sq225917]

Well, we agree on one thing Richard, that any vibration is at a very low level in solid state gear. I'd say the audible effect on the music signal is way down, right down their with 1f noise.

 

[Basil]

Does how they are bolted to the case (or the case material) matter?
Well I wouldn't claim to know having never tried it, so I'd defer to those who've done the research until I hear otherwise for myself.

Well in my experience, building an Avondale power amp, it has no effect.

My Avondale 260z has been through many different adaptations.

It first saw light of day in two half-width Naim cases, transformer in one, power supply and amp boards in the other (I seem to have lost the pictures of this version)

Then it was split into three half-width Naim cases.

Finaly it was all combined into a single Avondale box.

And fitted with muting & DC protection relays a little later.

And it sounds exactly the same now as it did at the very start.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Well in my experience, building an Avondale power amp, it has no effect.

My Avondale 260z has been through many different adaptations.

It first saw light of day in two half-width Naim cases, transformer in one, power supply and amp boards in the other (I seem to have lost the pictures of this version)

Then it was split into three half-width Naim cases.

Finaly it was all combined into a single Avondale box.

And fitted with muting & DC protection relays a little later.

And it sounds exactly the same now as it did at the very start.

Same material same type of construction - so why should they sound different. Plus the important question of whether your system is capable of showing the difference.

 

[Basil]

Plus the important question of whether your system is capable of showing the difference.

It highlights the differences between Alfred Brendel and Julius Katchen with ease, what else matters?

 

[Richard Dunn]

It highlights the differences between Alfred Brendel and Julius Katchen with ease, what else matters?

A lot of things if you would open your mind.

 

[Cav]

Plus the important question of whether your system is capable of showing the difference.

And how do you ensure that (apart from buying your product)?

 

[Richard Dunn]

And how do you ensure that (apart from buying your product)?

I don't ensure anything, it does or it doesn't. I am sure there are things that *any* system is still masking as we haven't finished the journey yet.